Legislature(2013 - 2014)BUTROVICH 205

04/04/2014 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES


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03:30:22 PM Start
03:31:12 PM Alaska Coal: Abundance and Composition
03:53:57 PM Coal Power Generation and Coal Conversion Technology
04:24:03 PM Healy Ii Power Plant and Obstacles of Technology Usage
05:05:13 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Informational Hearing: Alaska Coal and Coal TELECONFERENCED
Technology
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         April 4, 2014                                                                                          
                           3:30 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Cathy Giessel, Chair                                                                                                    
Senator Fred Dyson, Vice Chair                                                                                                  
Senator Peter Micciche                                                                                                          
Senator Click Bishop                                                                                                            
Senator Anna Fairclough                                                                                                         
Senator Hollis French                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lesil McGuire                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
INFORMATIONAL HEARING: ALASKA COAL AND CLEAN COAL TECHNOLOGY                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
LORALI SIMON, Vice President                                                                                                    
External Affairs                                                                                                                
Usibelli Coal Mine                                                                                                              
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented overview of using coal for power                                                                
generation in Alaska with Mr. Graham.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
DAN GRAHAM, President                                                                                                           
Alaska Coal Association                                                                                                         
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented overview of using coal for power                                                                
generation in Alaska in conjunction with Ms. Simon.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
BRENT SHEETS, Deputy Director                                                                                                   
Alaska Center for Energy and Power (ACEP)                                                                                       
University of Alaska Fairbanks                                                                                                  
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:  Presented  a  "primer"  on  available  coal                                                             
conversion technology and power generation.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MIKE WRIGHT, Vice President                                                                                                     
Transmission and Distribution                                                                                                   
Golden Valley Electric Association (GVEA)                                                                                       
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Talked about  their Healy  Unit 2  Plant and                                                             
some of the obstacles to clean coal technology usage.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
JASON HERRING, Chief Executive Officer Vivify, Inc.                                                                             
POSITION  STATEMENT: Presented  a new  technology that  will help                                                             
Alaska deal with some of its energy concerns.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
JUSTIN POTTS, Vice President                                                                                                    
Vivify, Inc.                                                                                                                    
POSITION  STATEMENT: Presented  a new  technology that  will help                                                             
Alaska deal with some of its energy concerns.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
BRUCE FOMHOFF, Chief Operation Officer/Chief Technology Officer                                                                 
Vivify, Inc.                                                                                                                    
POSITION  STATEMENT: Presented  a new  technology that  will help                                                             
Alaska deal with some of its energy concerns.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
BUDDY PAUL, Chief Executive Officer                                                                                             
Vivify, Inc.                                                                                                                    
POSITION  STATEMENT: Presented  a new  technology that  will help                                                             
Alaska deal with some of its energy concerns.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:30:22 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  CATHY   GIESSEL  called  the  Senate   Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting  to order at 3:30  p.m. Present at the  call to                                                               
order  were Senators  Bishop,  Micciche,  Dyson, Fairclough,  and                                                               
Chair Giessel.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
^INFORMATIONAL HEARING: ALASKA COAL AND CLEAN COAL TECHNOLOGY                                                                   
  INFORMATIONAL HEARING: ALASKA COAL AND CLEAN COAL TECHNOLOGY                                                              
^Alaska Coal: Abundance and Composition                                                                                         
             Alaska Coal: Abundance and Composition                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:31:12 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR GIESSEL welcomed the Alaska Coal Association.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:31:28 PM                                                                                                                    
LORALI  SIMON, Vice  President, External  Affairs, Usibelli  Coal                                                               
Mine, Fairbanks,  Alaska, said  she was here  today on  behalf of                                                               
the Alaska Coal Association, for  which she is vice president and                                                               
secretary/treasurer. She  said the association  is a  rough group                                                               
of many stakeholders in the coal industry in Alaska.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:31:46 PM                                                                                                                    
DAN  GRAHAM,  President,   Alaska  Coal  Association,  Fairbanks,                                                               
Alaska, said  he would do  a shared presentation with  Ms. Simon.                                                               
Alaska  is  blessed  with  an   abundance  of  coal  and  diverse                                                               
locations throughout the state, he said.  The bulk of them are on                                                               
the  North Slope  and  therefore not  extractable  at this  time,                                                               
because access to  market is needed. There is  only one operating                                                               
mine: Usibelli Coal  Mine in Healy. A UCM  development project is                                                               
happening in the  Palmer area of Wishbone Hill and  a project for                                                               
PacRim Coal is in the advanced  permitting phase  proposed on the                                                               
west side of  Cook Inlet. Riversdale Alaska's  Chickaloon Coal is                                                               
another  project and  Black  Range  has coal  leases  and a  mine                                                               
permit  in the  Wishbone area.  And DNR  had been  asked to  do a                                                               
lease sale in the Susitna Basin.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
For  infrastructure,   Mr.  Graham  said,  they   have  one  port                                                               
currently: the  Alaska Railroad  has the port  in Seward  and the                                                               
rail line to connect that to coal resources.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:33:54 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. GRAHAM explained  "Why Coal Now," because it's a  fuel of the                                                               
past.  The next  slide  showed  the mix  of  the U.S.  electrical                                                               
generation  market,  a  diversified  portfolio  for  stable  fuel                                                               
prices  in which  coal has  traditionally been  50 percent.  That                                                               
started to  drop in  2008 and  is now down  to about  35 percent.                                                               
That is primarily because the  current administration has imposed                                                               
regulations to reduce electrical  production. The other reason is                                                               
that the price of gas in the Lower  48 has gone from $6 to as low                                                               
as $3, because of fracking. He  explained that a lot of utilities                                                               
that used to run their coal plants  full out and used the gas for                                                               
peaking have switched it around  and are running their gas plants                                                               
full out and shutting down some of their coal plants.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Alaska,  by contrast,  is not  quite as  diversified. Before  the                                                               
1990s, 72 percent of our power  generation in the Railbelt was by                                                               
gas and  only 3  percent was by  coal. Gas was  running as  a by-                                                               
product in Cook Inlet.  So, it was $1 or $2 a  unit. In the early                                                               
2000s,  Golden Valley  added some  capacity, a  gas-fired turbine                                                               
run  on naphtha,  a by-product  produced  at their  new plant  in                                                               
North  Pole  that  increased  reliance   on  petroleum  and  gas.                                                               
Currently ML&P and  Chugach have added over  400 megawatts, which                                                               
is  almost all  gas-fired  power; Matanuska  Electric added  more                                                               
gas-fired  power,  Homer  Electric   added  more,  too,  and  gas                                                               
dependence has now gone up to over 76 percent.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:35:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  GRAHAM He  pointed out  his concern  for higher  gas prices,                                                               
because they are now running higher than Henry Hub and the in-                                                                  
state gas line has projections for LNG and gas at $11.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:36:40 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. SIMON explained  that coal accounts for almost  30 percent of                                                               
the  electrical  energy  capacity  and nearly  one-third  of  the                                                               
electrical energy generation  in the Interior's and  the six coal                                                               
burning power plants equal about 136 megawatts of coal.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:37:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. SIMON  noted that coal  is the Interior's  lowest-cost source                                                               
of energy;  on a  per-btu basis,  coal is half  the cost  of gas,                                                               
one-third the cost of naphtha and one-sixth the cost of diesel.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRAHAM  said a  study in  2000 indicated  underutilization of                                                               
coal in Alaska  and an export market opportunity.  Coal demand is                                                               
growing  world-wide, and  even though  the U.S.  use has  dropped                                                               
below a billion tons, a 50  percent growth is projected to happen                                                               
between now  and 2040. China  and India are  a big part  of that,                                                               
because the easiest most inexpensive  means for them to modernize                                                               
and energize some of their populations is with coal-fired power.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRAHAM  explained  that  coal   supplies  come  mostly  from                                                               
Indonesia and Australia;  the U.S. isn't really much  of a player                                                               
in the  world export  market. Going  forward, Australia  has some                                                               
constraints  on  infrastructure,  labor,  and  taxes  that  could                                                               
affect their  pricing. Indonesia has actually  looked at imposing                                                               
limits on exports  to preserve their resource for  their own use.                                                               
So, there  is an opportunity  for the  U.S. to expand  supply and                                                               
that could benefit Alaska.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:38:38 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR FRENCH joined the committee meeting.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:40:23 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. SIMON  noted a copy  of McDowell Group's Energy  and Economic                                                               
Impact Assessment  for coal  on the Interior  of Alaska  and said                                                               
it's  important  to  remember  the  importance  of  the  economic                                                               
impacts  of the  coal industry  to Alaska.  It provides  692 jobs                                                               
statewide with an average wage of  over $100,000 per year. In the                                                               
absence of coal,  the Interior of Alaska could  face energy costs                                                               
of up to $200 million more annually.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:41:20 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. SIMON said  that the U.S. is meeting the  requirements of the                                                               
Clean  Air Act.  Coal  use in  the  U.S. from  1970  to 2013  has                                                               
increased 173 percent, yet emissions  have decreased by almost 90                                                               
percent.  It's important  to consider  that developing  economies                                                               
are growing, because of their use of coal.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
What makes Alaska's  coal clean? She explained  that this concept                                                               
isn't just a  marketing tool; it is a scientific  fact. Alaska is                                                               
blessed  with ultra-low  sulfur coal  that also  has low  mercury                                                               
levels (two-thirds  less than other  Pacific Rim coals).  So, she                                                               
often  explains  to people  how  aside  from benefiting  Alaska's                                                               
economy,  nothing   is  wrong  with  helping   our  international                                                               
neighbors reduce their emissions by using Alaska's clean coal.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:42:21 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR FAIRCLOUGH asked what naphtha is.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRAHAM answered that it's a  liquid fuel, one of the products                                                               
made at the  North Pole refinery when they pull  the crude out of                                                               
the pipeline.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:42:58 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  DYSON asked  about the  future for  exporting Usibelli's                                                               
coal and what can the legislature do to remove barriers to it.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. SIMON  answered that since  Usibelli supplies 100  percent of                                                               
the in-state demand, the only  opportunity for them to grow their                                                               
business  is in  the export  market, and  that is  what they  are                                                               
looking at  doing. Their  current customers  are in  Chile, South                                                               
Korea and Japan. She noted  the need for stability in regulations                                                               
and permitting.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:45:28 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR DYSON asked for specific regulations to be submitted.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:45:55 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  BISHOP iterated  his support  for coal  saying the  coal                                                               
industry brings jobs to Alaska.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:46:46 PM                                                                                                                    
MS.  SIMON bragged  that  Usibelli had  just  surpassed 600  days                                                               
without a last time injury at the mine.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MICCICHE  noted the  need for jobs  and energy  and asked                                                               
what exactly the holdup is for permitting Wishbone.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SIMON replied  according to  statute there  is a  successive                                                               
right  of  renewal  for  their mining  permit,  which  was  first                                                               
obtained in  1991. Every five years  it comes up for  renewal and                                                               
every  five years  the  company has  renewed it.  It  was up  for                                                               
renewal  in 2011,  but  then DNR  asked  Usibelli for  additional                                                               
information that  is outside  of regulation or  law, the  type of                                                               
data collection  that takes  time and  money. So,  it has  been a                                                               
frustrating  process. However,  they believe  they have  answered                                                               
all   of  DNR's   questions  and   provided  all   the  requested                                                               
information, and anticipate that permit to be renewed very soon.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:48:42 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  MICCICHE stated  that diesel  fuel leaks,  is bulky  and                                                               
hard to  handle, and  asked about the  possibility of  using some                                                               
localized mining production for energy.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRAHAM replied that he had  been working in the coal industry                                                               
for 25 years and that has  always been considered. You could have                                                               
a seasonal  summer mine, take  it up  and down the  river system.                                                               
The  bottleneck   has  traditionally  been  having   an  adequate                                                               
packaged boiler-type system that could  be set up and operated in                                                               
the village system. The problem  with that technology is that the                                                               
loads in the villages are too small to make it practical.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:51:15 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. SIMON added that  if there is a diesel spill  on a river that                                                               
is a much bigger problem than a coal spill.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GIESSEL  asked her to  talk about some of  the archaeologic                                                               
artifacts that they have uncovered in the Chuitna project.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRAHAM answered that defining  your project and its footprint                                                               
is part  of any coal  project; for  your baseline studies  you do                                                               
clearances  and  one  of  them   is  archaeological.  They  hired                                                               
archaeologists  who walked  a  ten-meter grid,  and  down by  the                                                               
coastal  bluffs  along Cook  Inlet  they  found some  depressions                                                               
which turned  out to  be old  house beds dating  from 600  to 250                                                               
years  old. They  spent two  more  summers investigating,  carbon                                                               
dating,  surveying, and  mapping them.  Once  you look  at it  in                                                               
contours they really stand out. As  a result, they have moved all                                                               
of their  facilities off of those  locations. Recovered artifacts                                                               
will be curated  at the Museum of the North.  The Kenai Peninsula                                                               
Borough owns the property and  will transfer ownership of them to                                                               
the Native Village of Tyonek, once they have been curated.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:53:39 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR GIESSEL thanked him for his presentation.                                                                                 
^Coal Power Generation and Coal Conversion Technology                                                                           
      Coal Power Generation and Coal Conversion Technology                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:53:57 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR GIESSEL welcomed Brent Sheets  to provide a presentation on                                                               
coal power generation and coal conversion technology.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:54:12 PM                                                                                                                    
BRENT  SHEETS,  Deputy Director,  Alaska  Center  for Energy  and                                                               
Power (ACEP), University of  Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska,                                                               
explained that  his presentation  is kind of  a "primer"  on coal                                                               
conversion  technology that  is  available and  then focusing  on                                                               
power generation.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
3:54:44 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS  said he had been  around Alaska for 12  years working                                                               
on energy  issues. Formerly  he was with  the U.S.  Department of                                                               
Energy as regional manager of the Arctic Energy Office.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
He said that  back in 2002 everyone was murmuring  a little about                                                               
whether Cook  Inlet was going to  run out of gas,  and his office                                                               
is the  one that  looked at  that first. They  came up  with some                                                               
assessments and  that's what got  the ball rolling on  the Alaska                                                               
Natural Gas Development Authority (ANGDA).  They also did some of                                                               
the first studies on how to  size the gas pipeline and, even more                                                               
relevant  to this  committee, when  Agrium was  first looking  at                                                               
closing  up they  approached his  office asking  to look  at coal                                                               
gasification  as a  technology (a  process that  also produces  a                                                               
choice between  ammonia fertilizer  or transportation  fuel). So,                                                               
phase 2  of their study took  the plant they designed  for Agrium                                                               
and moved  it over  to the  Usibelli at Healy  to see  what would                                                               
happen to the economics.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:56:26 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  SHEETS said  he  has  a decade  of  experience working  with                                                               
Alaska energy  issues and has been  with the ACEP for  two years.                                                               
It  primarily  focuses  on  reliable  and  affordable  power  for                                                               
Alaska,  especially  for villages.  They  have  20 staff,  mostly                                                               
research  engineers, and  35 faculty  affiliates from  throughout                                                               
the system, three of whom sit with staff regularly.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
One of  the things  he is  most proud of  is ACEP's  power system                                                               
integration lab  which has a  300 kilowatt (kw)  diesel generator                                                               
with the capability  of totally programming that lab  to act like                                                               
virtually any  community in  Alaska, so  they can  accurately see                                                               
how different  systems work.  They are  also developing  a hydro-                                                               
kinetic test site  on the Tanana River in Nenana  that he invited                                                               
them to visit.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:57:40 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  SHEETS explained  that ACEP  has brought  in $26  million in                                                               
grants  over the  last six  years and  on average  receives about                                                               
$500,000 in appropriations from the state.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:58:07 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  SHEETS  said  that  brings  them  to  the  meat  of  today's                                                               
presentation,  coal  technology.  There are  three  technologies:                                                               
pulverized  coal,  fluidized  bed,  and  integrated  gasification                                                               
combined-cycle plants. He would  focus on fluidized beds, because                                                               
the   integrated   gasification   combined-cycle   are   not   an                                                               
appropriate scale for what they are trying to accomplish.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
He said the  coal plants in Alaska are largely  a fixed bed type,                                                               
a conveyor  belt you put  the coal in on  one side and  it passes                                                               
through the boiler; by the time it  gets to the other side of the                                                               
conveyor  belt it  is  largely  used up  and  then  the ash  gets                                                               
disposed  of.  He  explained  that   the  rest  of  the  industry                                                               
currently  uses  a fluidized  bed  process  that has  two  types:                                                               
bubbling bed and circulated fluidized bed.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:59:15 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS illustrated  how a 100 megawatt (mw)  (way larger than                                                               
any  in Alaska)  coal-fired power  plant works.  You have  a coal                                                               
supply that  is delivered into the  boiler (losing 15 mgw  up the                                                               
stack  right away).  The 85  mw is  from boiling  water and  high                                                               
pressure steam  that gets passed  through a turbine that  in turn                                                               
generates  electricity. Once  the low  pressure steam  has passed                                                               
through  the turbine  it still  has a  significant heat  content,                                                               
worth 45 mw of  the power. So, of the coal  being put through the                                                               
plant,  40 mw  were used  to generate  electricity (a  40 percent                                                               
power plant  efficiency); most  power plants  are in  that range.                                                               
Then there are  multiple ways of extracting more  energy from the                                                               
45 mw of low-pressure hot water.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:00:59 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.   SHEETS  explained   the  bubbling   bed  is   his  favorite                                                               
technology, mostly  because it  uses a wide  range of  feed stock                                                               
like  coal   and  biomass.   They  are   seen  in   really  small                                                               
applications like  on farms  and in  municipalities to  deal with                                                               
sewage and waste.  A lot of mass can be  burned at relatively low                                                               
temperatures.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
He  said  the circulating  fluidized  bed  has tremendously  good                                                               
environmental  performance   and  is   what  the   University  is                                                               
upgrading to. What  makes it different is the  coal particles are                                                               
suspended in a  tall chamber by a  large volume of air  at a very                                                               
fast rate,  so that you  don't have  a bed of  materials bubbling                                                               
away on  the bottom. Everything  is always in motion  through the                                                               
large tower; the heavier particles will  be at the bottom. As the                                                               
coal particles  burn up they  become smaller and lighter  so they                                                               
can move  further up into  the column  of hot air  continuing all                                                               
the  time  to  burn.  So,  in the  end,  the  particle  is  fully                                                               
consumed. The  occasional particles  that get through  are caught                                                               
in  the cyclone  outside of  the  main chamber  and are  directed                                                               
right back into the  bed - to make sure every  last bit of energy                                                               
is obtained. This  is highly efficient and therefore  is good for                                                               
the environment.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:03:53 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  SHEETS said  the  University  needs a  power  plant and  had                                                               
settled on a  circulating fluidized bed. It will  be permitted to                                                               
accept 15 percent  biomass and will generate 17 mw  of power. The                                                               
University will keep the diesel/natural gas boilers for backup.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:04:42 PM                                                                                                                    
He  said that  energy  is  what keeps  the  University of  Alaska                                                               
Fairbanks (UAF)  working. They  have 3.1  million square  feet of                                                               
public facilities  with an average age  of 34 years and  they all                                                               
need power.  It is not  unique for a  university to have  its own                                                               
power plant;  500 schools, universities and  hospitals have their                                                               
own because  it makes economic  sense. His  old alma mater  had a                                                               
power  plant fueled  by lignite,  a  brown coal  with low  energy                                                               
content. Alaska's coal is far superior.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:06:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS pointed  out that the boiler at UAF  was built in 1962                                                               
and had  a design  life of  50 years, and  it is  in need  of re-                                                               
tubing now. That  would cost $15 million. He  said boiler failure                                                               
would require  clean up and  triple fuel costs (using  the backup                                                               
system) during the cleanup time. He  said that oil would cost the                                                               
University three times more than coal.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:08:03 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS  said the  chancellor always asks  why they  don't buy                                                               
power from Golden  Valley and that is because they  need heat, as                                                               
well. So it  wouldn't be efficient. Building a  natural gas plant                                                               
would  not  be  competitive  with  coal;  it  would  have  to  be                                                               
$10/mmbtu  and nobody  is  talking  that even  in  the best  case                                                               
scenario. With  a circulating fluidized  bed, operating  costs of                                                               
the  power plant  would  go from  $10 million  per  year to  $5.3                                                               
million.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
He  reiterated  that the  circulating  fluidized  bed is  also  a                                                               
better environmental  performer. Building the plant  would create                                                               
a lot  of jobs from 2015  to 2018, and  he hoped that once  it is                                                               
designed  and  built that  the  design  could  be used  again  by                                                               
someone else up here, like the Army.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:09:38 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS explained  that the University has $3  million now for                                                               
the preliminary  design and  permitting stage  and has  a request                                                               
before   the  legislature   for   $245   million  ($195   million                                                               
appropriated funds and $50 million  of bonds, which would be paid                                                               
for from the savings of the operating costs).                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:10:02 PM                                                                                                                    
So, what do they do about  the villages in rural Alaska? In 2006,                                                               
Mr.  Sheets explained  that his  former office  designed a  barge                                                               
mounted, coal-fired, power  plant. The Yukon River FBC  Unit is 5                                                               
mw, a  good size for Nome  or Bethel, but they  looked at putting                                                               
it in Nome. On the north side  of the Seward Peninsula there is a                                                               
coal find called  Chicago Creek, but they figured  it wouldn't be                                                               
economic to  use it.  So, they looked  at bringing  Usibelli coal                                                               
around the  coast of  Alaska or  importing British  Columbia coal                                                               
(avoiding the Jones Act).                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
He explained that many communities  have coal right outside their                                                               
city  gates.  It would  be  a  wonderful  job creator  and  money                                                               
savings thing  if in the winter  time a community could  build an                                                               
ice road out to it and dig  coal all winter long. The money could                                                               
stay in  the community.  A barge  to bring the  coal in  could be                                                               
built in  the Lower  48 in  a shipyard where  there are  many tax                                                               
incentives to keep jobs.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:12:00 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS said if he were to  do the barge project over he would                                                               
probably look  at a coal  gasification unit.  It is similar  to a                                                               
fluidized  bed  in that  the  feed  stock has  some  flexibility.                                                               
Gasification  is simply  heating the  coal in  a very  controlled                                                               
oxygen environment  to the  point of driving  off the  gases. The                                                               
ultimate products to go after are carbon monoxide and hydrogen.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
So, following his diagram, the gas  would come off the top of the                                                               
first chamber  and go through  a gas stream cleanup  process that                                                               
would provide a clean synthetic gas.  The syngas could be used in                                                               
a  combined cycle  plant  where  it could  be  combusted to  make                                                               
electricity;  some of  the  heat could  be  recovered for  making                                                               
additional electricity or steam. The  water (left from the steam)                                                               
would be re-injected back into the circulating process.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Once the coal is in a  synthetic gas form, there are many options                                                               
for  the final  product. For  instance, they  could make  ammonia                                                               
fertilizer as they  did for the Agrium plant or  put it through a                                                               
Fischer Tropsch process and make  transportation fuels and ultra-                                                               
low sulphur diesel.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHEETS explained  that gasification was developed  in WWII by                                                               
Germany and was  also further refined by South  Africa during the                                                               
apartheid  days when  the  rest  of the  world  just wouldn't  do                                                               
business with  them. Now Sasol  Co. is the largely  known company                                                               
in the gasification field, Fischer Tropsch in particular.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
He said the  military wants alternatives to oil for  fuel and has                                                               
investigated use of coal.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:18:24 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  SHEETS noted  Healy economics  from their  2007 study  as an                                                               
example of  the sorts of analyses  that have gone into  this work                                                               
for Alaska. Back  in 2007, they looked at  putting a gasification                                                               
plant at  the Usibelli coal  mine mouth  and used site  plans for                                                               
the Emily Creek  power station. And they  found that economically                                                               
a Fischer  Tropsch liquid fuels  plant probably wouldn't  pan out                                                               
there,  and  that traditional  refining  of  oil was  still  more                                                               
economic than  refined coal products.  It would have  made 14,600                                                               
barrels   per  day   of  ultra-low   sulphur  diesel,   with  the                                                               
expectation that  it would  have been  delivered to  the Williams                                                               
Refinery in North Pole and be  blended with a diesel product that                                                               
would  meet the  EPA  requirements for  ultra-low sulphur  diesel                                                               
fuel. This plan warrants continued  monitoring and given that now                                                               
the North Pole Refinery has  announced its closure, he encouraged                                                               
someone to go  back and look at  this study and update  it to see                                                               
if there are some synergies that  could be useful to help out the                                                               
whole industry in that whole region.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:19:27 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. SHEETS related  that two projects, CIRI and  Linc Energy, are                                                               
both pursuing  underground coal gasification projects  in Alaska.                                                               
Both  would be  essentially the  same; a  production well  with a                                                               
horizontal injection  well some  distance away. An  oxidant would                                                               
be injected to  begin burning the coal product and  you would end                                                               
up  with carbon  monoxide and  hydrogen again,  a synthetic  fuel                                                               
that could be  brought to the surface and turned  into any number                                                               
of products  they had already  discussed. The heavy  things would                                                               
all stay safely  in the ground. He said that  the Linc leases are                                                               
just across the Cook Inlet from Nikiski.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Finally, Mr.  Sheets said, he  was really impressed with  some of                                                               
the work  that the  Alaska Division  of Geologic  and Geophysical                                                               
Surveys (DGGS)  did starting back  in 1996. If you  can't produce                                                               
the coal and  can't burn it using  conventional technologies, you                                                               
can  drill into  the coal  perhaps if  it's economic  and in  the                                                               
right location, and  start extracting coal bed  natural gas. Some                                                               
risk is  involved, but that  is a way  to at least  provide local                                                               
energy to 37 communities that  have been identified as sitting on                                                               
or near  coal bed  methane. Nobody  is talking  about it,  but he                                                               
wanted it to be out there as an alternative to coal.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:20:40 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR DYSON noted that 10  years ago, his coal enthusiasts said                                                               
that coal  gasification could compete  with natural gas  if those                                                               
prices were  north of $5 and  asked him what he  thought it would                                                               
take.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHEETS  replied that  he didn't have  the dollar  figures any                                                               
more, but it is more challenging  now that natural gas has gotten                                                               
cheaper. He  mentioned importing  liquefied natural gas  into the                                                               
country and  that in those  situations coal to liquid  would have                                                               
been competitive. He  said to be mindful of gas  bubbles and that                                                               
he thought  this one would  be short-lived, because of  the shale                                                               
technology.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:22:48 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR BISHOP  said it  appears that the  new fluidized  bed UAF                                                               
plant was going to be 25 percent more efficient.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHEETS answered that was right.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BISHOP said it was a  plus that of the 37 communities, 70                                                               
percent of them are on or close to the water for shipping.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:23:52 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR   GIESSEL   thanked   Mr.  Sheets   for   his   informative                                                               
presentation.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
^Healy II Power Plant and Obstacles of Technology Usage                                                                         
   The Healy II Power Plant and Obstacles of Technology Usage                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:24:03 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  GIESSEL  welcomed  Mike  Wright  from  the  Golden  Valley                                                               
Electric Association.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:24:47 PM                                                                                                                    
MIKE  WRIGHT,  Vice  President,  Transmission  and  Distribution,                                                               
Golden Valley  Electric Association,  Fairbanks, Alaska,  said he                                                               
would  talk about  their  Healy  Unit 2  Plant  and  some of  the                                                               
obstacles  to  clean coal  technology  usage.  The definition  of                                                               
clean coal technology is a  constantly changing dynamic. When the                                                               
Healy Clean  Coal Plant, which is  now Healy 2, first  began, the                                                               
focus was  on reduction of  NOx, SOx, particulate  matter, carbon                                                               
monoxide, Ozone, and  lead. The current focus is  on reduction of                                                               
greenhouse gases  or CO.  EPA  is also  focused on  hazardous air                                                               
                       2                                                                                                        
pollutants such as mercury, but CO  is really at the forefront of                                                               
                                  2                                                                                             
current regulations.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:25:51 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WRIGHT said  Healy  Unit  2 was  an  official Department  of                                                               
Energy (DOE) clean coal plant when  it was permitted in the early                                                               
90s. It  uses pulverized coal (as  does Unit 1) that  goes into a                                                               
boiler versus a  fluidized bed or conveyor belt.  For NOx control                                                               
it used an  advanced combustion technology with  a cyclone burner                                                               
with  a  slagging combustor  that  "lava-flowed"  out of  it  and                                                               
dropped into a  cooling pond, which removed 75-80  percent of the                                                               
ash; the pollutants went out into the slagging combustor.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
For SO  control, a spray dryer absorber  injected lime that mixed                                                               
      2                                                                                                                         
with the SO  and got captured in  the "bag house." The combustion                                                               
           2                                                                                                                    
technology helped  remove the particulate matter  in the slagging                                                               
combustor and the bag house picked up most of that.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:27:06 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT  explained that fuel  diversity is an  important thing                                                               
for the  Healy 2 plant and  that GVEA is quite  diverse, too, but                                                               
one of their challenges is that they  have to use oil, which is a                                                               
relatively high cost  of power. And unlike oil and  gas, coal has                                                               
a long-term stable price. Alaska has 350 years of coal reserves.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:28:08 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WRIGHT reviewed  GVEA's generation  assets  from their  most                                                               
recent integrated  resource plan.  Their most efficient  plant is                                                               
North Pole 3  and 4, which is a gas-turbine  combined cycle, just                                                               
like  the  Southcentral  plant  that  Chugach  Electric  put  in.                                                               
However, it  uses naphtha that has  high prices. So, while  it is                                                               
their  best combustion  turbine price,  it is  significantly more                                                               
than the coal price even though coal plants are less efficient.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Healy 2 will be coming in  around 12,500 Btu/kwh, a little better                                                               
than  Healy  1, but  still  not  as good  as  some  of their  gas                                                               
turbines, but cheaper, which is good for their members.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:29:29 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT said  they decided to purchase the plant,  but as they                                                               
were renewing air permits, some  environmental groups opposed it.                                                               
So they ended  up agreeing to a consent decree  with the EPA that                                                               
says  to  restart  the  plant  they  have  to  install  Selective                                                               
Catalytic Reduction  (SCR) for additional NOx  reduction. Healy 1                                                               
would  also have  to  install  Selective Non-catalytic  Reduction                                                               
(SNCR), which  is just injection of  urea, but by 2024  they have                                                               
to decide to either shut the plant  down or add an SCR to keep it                                                               
operating.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
He  said that  one  of the  challenges in  having  two of  almost                                                               
anything is  that retrofitting  existing plants  is a  little bit                                                               
more expensive than  new build. He added  that pre-consent decree                                                               
their  NOx level  was at  1366 tons/yr.  and post  consent decree                                                               
they have  to be at 533  tons/yr. The SO  didn't change  much, so                                                               
                                        2                                                                                       
their focus was on reducing NOx.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:31:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT said the consent decree  was done in November 2012, so                                                               
last  year  GVEA  hired  an   engineer  and  began  some  of  the                                                               
engineering for the SCR and SNCR,  because it takes a lot of time                                                               
to  close the  deal on  purchasing for  the plant.  They selected                                                               
Black and Vetch as their EPC  contractor for SCR and SNCR for the                                                               
two units and as their  startup manager and commissioning manager                                                               
for the Healy 2 plant. In December they closed on the plant.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
They had also ordered some of  the long-lead items like the plant                                                               
digital control system and some  special mill exhauster fans. The                                                               
plant  control  system  is  being  updated  and  that  should  be                                                               
finished around  June. Once that  is in, they will  start bumping                                                               
the systems and  checking motors and things. They  will be adding                                                               
25-30 permanent jobs  in Healy once the plant is  up and running;                                                               
it should start operating in about the second quarter.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:34:17 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WRIGHT explained  the regulatory  obstacles and  challenges,                                                               
specifying Utility  Mercury and Air Toxics  Standards (UMATS) and                                                               
additional coal monitoring regulations  on the horizon. They have                                                               
to comply  with UMATS by April  2015. Alaska coal is  very clean,                                                               
so  they   are  pretty   confident  the   plant  will   meet  the                                                               
requirements, and going forward, there  will be minimal costs for                                                               
monitoring the pollutants.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:35:42 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WRIGHT  noted  the  Green House  Gas  (GHG)  Reporting  Rule                                                               
requires  recording  and reporting  of  those,  but EPA  is  also                                                               
working  on proposing  new  source  performance standards.  Those                                                               
don't impact  them now, because  it is  for new sources,  but the                                                               
challenge would  be that  none of the  existing GVEA  units would                                                               
meet the  existing greenhouse gases standards  as proposed unless                                                               
there was some form of carbon capture and sequestration.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
He said that  most natural gas combustion turbines  will meet the                                                               
standards  without any  additional  controls. Utility  coal-fired                                                               
boilers and others would require  some form of carbon capture and                                                               
sequestration to meet the proposed GHG NSPS and GHG emissions.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:37:23 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT explained  that GVEA's North Pole GT 3  comes close to                                                               
the limit  with naphtha, but it  is slightly over and  that limit                                                               
is for new sources (theirs are already permitted).                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:38:04 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT noted  that the challenges of the  new coal regulation                                                               
are the  cost of  the equipment, modifying  the units  (if retro-                                                               
active), the  energy penalty, and the  sequestration location and                                                               
transportation to it.  CO  normally goes into a  well and finding                                                               
                         2                                                                                                      
that is a challenge, too.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
He  said  challenging  future coal  regulations  are:  greenhouse                                                               
gases  for already  existing units  and proposed  coal combustion                                                               
residual rules (for ash disposal).  He explained that GVEA has an                                                               
ash pond-type relationship  with Usibelli in which  ash builds up                                                               
in  a pit.  It gets  dredged  up and  Usibelli uses  it for  coal                                                               
reclamation (also under EPA regulations).  They don't have dykes,                                                               
which is what have been giving way.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Another rule that  is a "hot ticket item" is  the Clean Water Act                                                               
316b rule  governing intakes for  the plants and making  sure you                                                               
don't damage fish stocks and things  like that. It turns out that                                                               
there are  some fish in  the Nenana  River, so their  plant needs                                                               
some water  intake protection work.  It could end up  being taken                                                               
to cooling towers,  which would cost a lot more  than bringing in                                                               
water from the river for cooling.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Effluent   limitation  guidelines   limit  certain   waste  water                                                               
discharges, he said,  and explained that GVEA takes  water out of                                                               
the river  and returns  it slightly warmer.  So they  monitor the                                                               
water temperature  to make sure  they aren't causing  any thermal                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:40:21 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT  summarized that  GVEA feels  that coal  provides fuel                                                               
diversity, long-term  stable rates  and significant  reserves for                                                               
the Interior. But the challenge  is future regulatory issues that                                                               
are focused on coal.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:41:17 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR GIESSEL thanked Mr. Wright for his presentation.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
 Cutting Edge Clean Coal Technology and Future Possibilities in                                                             
                             Alaska                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GIESSEL welcomed Buddy Paul,  Jason Herring, Bruce Fomhoff,                                                               
and Justin Potts from Vivify.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:42:05 PM                                                                                                                    
JASON HERRING, Chief Executive Officer  (CEO), Vivify, Inc., said                                                               
their sole purpose  is to explain how a new  technology will help                                                               
Alaska  deal  with some  of  its  energy concerns,  and  Vivify's                                                               
founding members are with him to help answer questions.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:42:41 PM                                                                                                                    
JUSTIN  POTTS, Vice  President,  Vivify, Inc.,  said  his was  an                                                               
informative   presentation   introducing   and   discussing   new                                                               
technology  for   capturing  emissions.   He  said  they   are  a                                                               
scientific  technology   company  primarily  focused   on  energy                                                               
challenges and problems.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:44:18 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  POTTS  said  he  would   talk  about  the  "next  generation                                                               
technology" called the  "Clean Air Technology" that  is about how                                                               
power  plants and  energy companies  clean their  emissions, deal                                                               
with pollution (not just CO,  but sulphur dioxide, nitrous oxide,                                                               
                           2                                                                                                    
carbon  monoxide, mercury,  and  air-borne  particles, as  well).                                                               
They are  focused on allowing  power plants to take  advantage of                                                               
the  availability of  clean, affordable  coal, yet  not have  the                                                               
burden  of  emissions. One  of  the  things especially  appealing                                                               
about  this new  generation technology,  that used  to be  called                                                               
scrubbers  and  flue  gas  desulphurization,  is  that  it  is  a                                                               
"perfect fit" for Alaska's coal power plants.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:45:35 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. POTTS explained that this  new technology is the "last jigsaw                                                               
piece" to generating low cost  electricity in a way that protects                                                               
the environment.   Rather than addressing  individual pollutants,                                                               
new technologies platforms are being  developed that will address                                                               
removing 100  percent of an  entire pollution problem as  well as                                                               
providing 100 percent zero emissions.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:47:37 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. POTTS said  this kind of system will  address everything from                                                               
heavy and light particulates to  mercury, nitrogen oxide, sulphur                                                               
dioxide, carbon monoxide and CO.                                                                                                
                               2                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
He explained that the capture  of these pollutants requires a lot                                                               
of energy -  called an energy penalty or a  parasitic load - that                                                               
detracts from  the net efficiency of  a power plant. As  that net                                                               
efficiency  declines, the  cost of  electricity goes  up for  the                                                               
users. So,  one of the areas  that the new technologies  focus on                                                               
is working at a zero parasitic load basis.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
He said  that power plants  are 45  and 65 percent  efficient. He                                                               
explained  that a  lot  of heat  and power  is  lost through  the                                                               
exhaust and the  new technologies are looking at how  to tap into                                                               
that heat and exhaust to fuel the pollution control systems.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:48:51 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. POTTS  pointed out a  graph of how carbon  capture technology                                                               
affected a  plant's net efficiency.  Here the plant ran  at about                                                               
35 percent  net efficiency without  any carbon capture.  When the                                                               
technology  was added,  energy  was drawn  away  from the  plant;                                                               
therefore  that  plant  had   less  energy.  Historically,  these                                                               
technologies  have required  retro-fitting, which  often required                                                               
some kind of down-time, which has  a huge impact on the cost, but                                                               
the  new technologies  are  coming  in at  the  very  end of  the                                                               
process,  tapping  into  the  exhaust,   and  therefore,  can  be                                                               
implemented with zero or at least minimal down-time.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:50:39 PM                                                                                                                    
BRUCE FOMHOFF, Chief  Operation Officer/Chief Technology Officer,                                                               
Vivify,  Inc., expanded  that the  new technology  uses turbines,                                                               
compressors  and generators.  It uses  the heat  from the  "fluid                                                               
sauce"  coupled  with pressure  to  generate  additional heat  to                                                               
power   the  actual   generators,  themselves,   to  offset   the                                                               
operational costs.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
He explained  that heat exchangers  are used to extract  the heat                                                               
and  precipitate the  contaminants  out of  the pressurized  gas.                                                               
This  way the  carbon monoxide  and volte  organic compounds  are                                                               
captured and  returned back  to the  system for  combustion. It's                                                               
really a simple technology, he said.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:52:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. FOMHOFF said they use cryogenic  chambers to cool and pump to                                                               
separate the air  compounds. This can be done to  plants that are                                                               
already mothballed  and to the  even newer technologies,  and can                                                               
work in conjunction with other  carbon capture technologies. Each                                                               
compound  will  precipitate  under  its own  ideal  pressure  and                                                               
temperature within its own respective chamber within the plant.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:53:15 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. FOMHOFF explained that for  existing plants the exhaust would                                                               
be mixed  through water-filled  hydroponic towers,  which removes                                                               
both heavy and light particles.  He said that the heavy particles                                                               
condense  and   separate  under  high  pressure.   They  work  in                                                               
conjunction with  an Anti-Gravity Enhanced Separator  (AGES) that                                                               
moves  those  particles  out  of  the water  where  they  can  be                                                               
sequestered  individually   as  a  resource  (instead   of  being                                                               
considered  waste).   Centrifugal  force   is  used   to  capture                                                               
particulates  in  the  air  by  weight. It  could  even  be  used                                                               
elsewhere in the plant for  other conversion. Vivify's technology                                                               
is  a   simple,  cost-effective,  advanced,   complete  emissions                                                               
control and carbon capture solution.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOMHOFF  said that Vivify's  Pulsar technology is  used where                                                               
they  are creating  on-demand hydrogen  and oxygen  as needed  to                                                               
create an  additional low-cost,  high-yield burning  fuel source.                                                               
Their goal  is to use  all of the  exhaust by repurposing  it. He                                                               
said the  emission control  system would  help in  recovering any                                                               
capital costs needed for conversion.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:57:12 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR DYSON asked for a  fuller explanation of how pressure and                                                               
temperature are used to separate the different elements.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:57:39 PM                                                                                                                    
BUDDY  PAUL, Chief  Executive  Officer,  Vivify, Inc.,  explained                                                               
that the cryogenic process, using  both pressure and temperature,                                                               
precipitates out water first, at  0-32 degrees. The next stage of                                                               
precipitation would be  CO  at -60 degrees and a  300-400 psi. At                                                               
                          2                                                                                                     
each stage a different element  will precipitate out. Nitrogen is                                                               
used as  the feed  stock to regulate  all the  other temperatures                                                               
and pressures, because  it precipitates at the  coldest point and                                                               
he could  make the chamber  exactly to match that  particular by-                                                               
product  from  the coal.  The  by-products  get released  through                                                               
turbines to create additional electricity.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:00:42 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  DYSON   said  he  assumed   that  he  used   gravity  to                                                               
precipitate particles out in a vapor of some kind.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PAUL responded  that was  a different  scenario. There  is a                                                               
difference between the  old and new technology.  The older plants                                                               
did  not have  the  bagging systems  that connect  a  lot of  the                                                               
particles. In  that case, when  there are a lot  of particulates,                                                               
especially  the  heavy  particles,  that is  when  they  use  the                                                               
particle  acquisition towers  (the  cooling part),  and then  use                                                               
centrifugal  force to  separate the  heavy forces.  That is  just                                                               
because the majority  of the elements are there in  the raw form.                                                               
If it's  a newer system, then  he will use the  cryogenic process                                                               
primarily.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:02:10 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR BISHOP  asked if the  process is still in  the laboratory                                                               
phase or have tests been run.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PAUL  answered that  every  portion  of this  technology  is                                                               
proven, but he  couldn't design a model without  having specs for                                                               
a plant. So, there  is no working model at this  time. He said he                                                               
developed the Pulsar system three or  four years ago, and it is a                                                               
low-cost way to make it marketable for emissions control.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:04:10 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR MICCICHE said  he had no doubt it was  a fully functional                                                               
system,  but he  was real  interested  in seeing  a process  flow                                                               
diagram to understand a little better.  It comes down to cost per                                                               
unit and reliability.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
5:05:13 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR GIESSEL thanked Vivify for  their presentation. There being                                                               
no further business  to come before the  committee, she adjourned                                                               
the Senate Resources Standing Committee meeting at 5:05 p.m.